[chbot] Kickstart in FPGA course...

Wed Feb 16 03:17:35 GMT 2011

I am planning to bring 4 DVDs of Quartus II (Altera dev env) on Monday.

I am hoping that Mike can do the same with the equivalent Xilinx dev env.

One thing I noticed last meeting was that people were far to polite 
to take anything - "only if no one else wants them". However, as soon 
as I put the items in the garbage can all pretexts of politeness 
vanished. I wonder if there is a skip anywhere near by, we could have 
an very open, fruitful meeting in it !

-Mark

At 04:03 p.m. 16/02/2011, you wrote:
>On Tuesday 15 February 2011 18:28:00 Mark Atherton wrote:
> > The idea of a short course to get people started should cover the basics.
>
>Sounds like a good place to start...
>
> >
> > Bear in mind that total documentation for modern, complex FPGAs run
> > into the thousands of pages - the trick is to learn how to navigate
> > or where to look to find how to navigate the data.
>
>Yes, I dabbled with FPGAs 15 years ago. They're far more complex now, but if
>you're working at the VHDL level then most of that is hidden.
>
> >
> > I went with Altera rather than Xilinx because of it's usage at Tait
> > and the associated knowledge base - that is a big thing for me as it
> > could help open them up as a client.
> >
> >  From a pragmatic point of view don't forget to look at the number of
> > leaded pins and pin pitch of the less complex parts. BGA while cute
> > are difficult to manage on 2 layer PCBs.
> >
> >  From a beginners viewpoint, a cheap CPLD is probably OK just to see
> > what you can do with the technology.
> >
> > ... and so the Altera vs Xilinx battle raged.
>
>I really don't think this is such a big deal for logic dabbling. Sure, the
>toolset layout is different (different workflows) but the basic principles
>are the same. So too is any VHDL etc. so the learning probably works out the
>same.
>
>The differences seem to show themselves more once you start running code on
>internal processors etc.
>
>Well lets not limit the fight to Xilinx vs Altera. Don't forget Actel and
>Lattice!
>
>Lattice have a nice wee demo board
>(http://www.latticesemi.com/products/developmenthardware/developmentkits/xp2breviadevelopmentkit.cfm)
>for USD49. This comes with demos to run an 8-bit micro etc. It uses 
>a parallel
>cable for programming though :-( or USB for an extra 149 :-( and Windows
>only :-(.
>
>Actel have a nice USD99
>http://www.actel.com/products/hardware/devkits_boards/smartfusion_eval.aspx
>
>This has a hard-wired internal Cortex-M3 ARM CPU + 200k gates etc etc. USB
>download :-). Linux only available for parts of the toolchain  :-(.. OLED
>display, Ethernet, DACs and hot and cold running water :-).  Web server
>software...
>
>This hooks up to an Eclipse-based environment for programming/debugging
>(Windows only) but various support forums indicate some Linux workarounds.
>
>The Actel is perhaps a more interesting meld of custom logic + regular CPU
>programming that many robotics people would want to actually do.
>
>Lots of choices though the Actel has some real interesting extensions.
>
>
>
> >
> > -Mark
> >
> > Actually, I do have an old Xilinx board kicking around has never been
> > powered up and I am secretly hoping that Altera isn't chosen then
> > someone else gets to talk about something I know little about...
> >
> > At 05:38 p.m. 15/02/2011, Mike Field wrote:
> > >Hi Charles,
> > >
> > >It doesn't matter which board, as long as we all use the same tool stack.
> > >
> > >If anybody wants to get a bespoke board because it has just the features
> > >you want and the tools you want then you won't be able to leverage of
> > >off the shared experience and resources of the group when it comes to
> > >getting your hardware and tools working. You will most probably learn a
> > >lot more doing it though!
> > >
> > >That is why I am most happy if people are using any  Digilent board that
> > >works with Webpack. The options are:
> > >
> > >- Basys2-100k board - AU$97
> > >No offchip Flash/Ram,
> > >equivalent to 100,000 logic gates
> > >some onchip RAM/ROM
> > >
> > >- Basys2-250k board - AU$110
> > >No offchip Flash/Ram
> > >equivalent to 250,000 logic gates,
> > >more onchip RAM/ROM
> > >
> > >- Nexys2-500k board - AU$172
> > >16MB Flash, 16MB RAM
> > >Equivalent to 500,000 logic gates
> > >even more onchip RAM/ROM
> > >
> > >- Nexys2-1200k board - AU$215
> > >16MB Flash, 16MB RAM
> > >equivalent to 1,200,000 logic gates
> > >even more of onchip RAM/ROM
> > >
> > >I do have one board to lend if price was a real pain point but they were
> > >keen to give it ago, but even the cheapest baord one will do a lot of
> > >stuff (eg drive a PS/2 mouse, Serial port , and VGA, and other stuff at
> > >the same time)
> > >
> > >Anything more than that is getting into really serious money. Likewise
> > >if everybody else says that Altiris is "da bomb". or is used in the
> > >local Uni, then I want in on that stuff and will get one for myself.
> > >
> > >Another option would be for a tiny CPLD, at AU$30, but if you then pay
> > >AU$49 for a JTAG cable, it is only $19 less than a board with power
> > >supply, switches, connectors, clocks and lights on it, and you don't
> > >have to play around with a breadboard and jumpers. In my book CPLD are
> > >not really a starter for 10 for a first introduction to programmable
> > > logic.
> > >
> > >I guess that my aim is to  help people with the "This stuff is looks to
> > >be really cool - why haven't I heard more about these? How do I start"
> > >sort of problems. Gosh darn it is hard to get started by yourself.
> > >
> > >STOP READING NOW UNLESS YOU HAVE NOTHING BETTER TO DO :-)
> > >
> > >Here is my experience:
> > >"Hey, I would love to play with one of those, I can almost afford to get
> > >one!" Then the problems start...
> > >
> > >- WTF is JTAG?
> > >- Do I need a JTAG programmer?
> > >- Which programmer for what board?
> > >- Will this work with that no-cost software?
> > >- This board has extra RAM, this one has a DIMM socket, this has none!
> > >What do I want?
> > >
> > >Oh, bugger it I'll take a punt on Board X. It's the best I can get in my
> > >budget. "Holly heck! Check out that postage!" I'll have to wait for my
> > >pocket money (being a married man and all...)
> > >
> > >< Contact distributor, ask a few questions, wait a week or two for the
> > >board to arrive>
> > >
> > >I've got the board.
> > >- Oh, what drivers to I need?
> > >- Install drivers and board vendor's tools.
> > >- But where is the design tools? They are not in the box!
> > >- How do I get them?
> > ><Download the tools from the site>
> > >- Bugger - didn't work with windows 7 (at that time).
> > >- Install an XP virtual machine.
> > >- Bugger! I've downloaded the wrong version - I wanted the free one!
> > ><Download another bunch of files>
> > >
> > >Phew! Now have toolkit Installed, but...
> > >- What's all this licensing crap about?
> > ><Obtain license and work out how to apply it>
> > >
> > >Yay! ready to build something
> > >- Oh, what settings do I need for the FPGA type on my board?
> > >- What model/packaging/speed grade is it? Where are the parts datasheet?
> > >- How do I get the reference projects to compile and download?
> > >- Hey they compile and download but they don't work! What's up?
> > >- Where do I get an accurate constraints file? The net names one I have
> > >doesn't match the I/O connectors in the reference projects!
> > >
> > >Gosh, that was to hard, how about I just play with the lights and
> > >switches.. success!
> > >- How come  doesn't the system clock work?
> > >- Oh! It's on a different pin than the tool expects by default!
> > >Wow. A binary counter. That was bloody epic.
> > >
> > >And from then on it was lots of shagging around... but still a lot of
> > >hard questions!
> > >- What datasheet do I need for the memory?
> > >- How can I stuff some test data into flash?
> > >- Can I make it talk to my PC over USB?
> > >- Which pin is that USB-to-EPP bridge WRITE  signal on? It's not
> > >mentioned anywhere in the documentation!
> > >- Bugger! "Memutil" doesn't seem to work with this flash chip!
> > >- How do I use this using the C API on the PC!
> > >- All I want to do is write some data flash from my PC. How hard can it
> > > be!? ...
> > >
>
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