[GNUz] [Fwd: [SFD-discuss] Google Debate - long email ! sorry]
Rik Tindall
gnuz@inode.co.nz
Sat, 17 Mar 2007 02:51:55 +1300
-------- Original Message --------
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 07:48:32 -0500 (CDT)
From: Luis Gustavo Lira <dr_complexity@yahoo.com>
To: sfd-discuss@sf-day.org
http://groups.google.com/group/google-summer-of-code-discuss
We are very disappointing with the list of accepted
organizations. It
was quite a chock because many organizations with
social projects like
CUWiN or IFOSSF have not selected.
We think google need to draw attention to foss
projects whick really
makes a difference to people's live.
Support foss innovations are very important but have
we thought about
its social impacts.
What about the issues of provide low cost access to
telecomunications
(CUWiN), or applications to rural telecenters
(IFOSSF), or
applications to deliver microfinancial services to
poor families
(Cultura Libre).
We would encourage developers to look for solutions
with a social
impact and make FOSS technologies much more meaningful
to the people
who can truly benefit from it.
Google is one of the most innovative organizations in
the world but
they dont like to take the risk and support risky new
projects but
with a strong social benefit.
Innovation is a risky business but social innovation
is a extremely
risky business. I would like to ask to google's CEO
about this.
The social foss community need a Social SoC program.
----------------------------------------------
Dear Leslie,
Yes you are right, we know google has selected some
social projects:
Creative Commons, Drupal, Moodle, CPSR, Ubuntu, EFF,
Wikimedia, Lurie
Center, etc
But 8-10 projects over 130??? its a small rate.
We have some suggestions:
- Setup a minimun (20%) to support social foss
projects.
- More opportunities for organizations and developers
from third
world. 99 % of selected organizations are based in
first world
countries! and number of selected students from the
third world is
always very small. We (who are living in third world)
need a local
critical mass of organizations and high skilled
developers.
- Setup a minimun (20%) to support student developers
from the third
world. One of the great innovations in US education
system are the
programs to support minorities. Today hispanics,
blacks and american
natives have more opportunities to access to high
education. How many
google's employees have been awarded with that special
felloships when
they was at university???
- Sensibility program for google's administrators.
Learn from the
field. Meet with organization like Grameen Bank,
Ashoka, MSF and
others and ask what they need and how a program like
Summer of Code
could help to solve social/enviromental/health
problems.
Google has the power to change the world. Take the
challenge !
--------------------------------------
On 15 mar, 23:33, "Chris DiBona" <cdib...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> The google open source programs office has a variety
of programs, but we do
> not work on social justice, poverty abatement or
microlending. Google.org,
> which is substantially funded, concentrates on these
things. Our group
> worries about open source, open data, open protocols
and apis. These are
> the areas in which we innovate. The others can
benefit from our work through
> their use of open source software.
Right, we need open sources applications for
microfinancial
organizations, open source for dealing with disaster
management
(SAHANA project is an example), open source to provide
low cost
wireless internet (CUWiN), open source to rural
telecenters (IFOSSF).
Google thinks that there is not possible develop an
open source
application to social justice??? what about an
application based on
MySQL, Google Map API and PHP to develop a web system
for tracking
information about missing and kidnapped kids.
What about an application based on wxWidgets to
develop GUIs that
illiterate people can use.
What about an application based on blind linux
(blinux) to allow blind
students to learn linux.
This are only some social foss ideas and you are right
they are
applications and not new technology, but an
application is less
important?
There are many challenges.
Google thinks that is not posible to develop a new
protocol to social
justice? What about a new http protocol or a new IP
(called IPv7 or
IP2Freedom) to deploys networks that governments cant
block, imagine
the impact to thousand of social activists if they
could speak with
censure.
-----------------------------------------------------
Dear Chris
Sorry if I sound rude, this is not my intention, but
English is not my
first language.
We know that google support projects like OLPC and
Meraki, my group
here in Peru is working to promote OLPC project in
Peru. Check our web
page http://olpc.culturalibre.info/
And Meraki is a great solution, a low cost device and
very usefull to
provide low cost wireless communications, we are using
meraki mini in
our project "community microtelcos" here in Peru. Our
project was
selected by Telefonica and the project will be used in
very remote and
insolate zones in Peru and Brazil.
http://wiki.freeculture.org/Wirelessperu
> I'd suggest you go and do some of these projects,
help them code their
> software and then come back and tell us we're not
doing enough. Before
> intimating that we don't have the vision or depth to
understand these issues
> around open source when in fact we've been funding
them and helping release
> software into these realms for some time.
We ( Cultura Libre) have more of ten years working
with software and
non-software projects here in Peru, and we have been
awarded many
prizes from our social projects. Coca Cola, Motorola,
Telefonica,
Software Freedom International and many other
international
corporations and organization are selected and awarded
our
initiatives.
Summer of Code program is a innovative program.
However there are many
things to improve. There is a focus on abstract
innovations but
nothing about their impacts. Most selected
organization and students
are based in first world countries.
The open source movement is a global movement. Google
Jam has a
regional focus, Code Jam Latin America and Code Jam
Europe are some
examples.
Google has been selected high skilled students from
around the world
to work with google at Montain View, NY or London, we
know about many
students from argentina, chile or brazil who have been
selected to
work with google.
Summer of Code could be similar, Why the number of
selected
organizations from third world is too small?
And what about the number of selected students from
the third world?.
Google knows there are a lot of talent in the third
world and there
are a important number of google's developers from the
third world,
and is not easy get a job at google, you need to be
very talent
developer.
Why Summer of Code is different from the rest of
Google?
--------------------------------------
> Yes, most of the organizations selected operate out
of developed nations, but
> they serve a global community. A fine example of
this is the OLPC
> initiative. The technology is being developed in
countries like the United
> States and the United Kingdom, but specifically
serves underdeveloped
> nations. By sponsoring students working with OLPC,
Google is indirectly
> supporting those nations. All of the other
organizations that have been
> accepted also produce software that can be used in
those nations.
> This is really a matter of cost vs. benefit. By
working with these healthy
> organizations in developed nations, Google is able
to make the smallest
> investment benefit the largest possible number of
people. There are also
> financial and strategic advantages of working with
these organizations
> instead of trying to work things out with more
localized projects in
> third-world countries. Take a look at the
complexity of the tax situation.
These are wrong ideas. The best solution is support
local
development.
One of most innovative ideas to fight with poverty is
microfinances,
all programs from all organizations (UN, WB, USAID)
support local
institutions and initiatives.
The same with telecommunications, today all agencies
from all the
world support local initiatives, microtelcos are the
only solution to
provide universal access to poor families, most of
these families dont
know what is a phone.
OLPC is another good example, Brazil, Argentina and
Uruguay are
working toward to provide local support and
development, there are
many local initiatives to produce, repair and develop
software to OLPC
machines. Tuquito and UTUTO are examples from
Argentina, they want to
produce their own OS for OLPC.
Brazil want to produce their own "One Server per
School" servers and
they want to manufacture in brazil the next
generations of OLPC. And
there are many initiatives about content. My group is
working with
other groups to produce content in local native
languages, quechua,
aymara, jibaro, guarani and many other languages,
there are 60 millons
of quechua speakers in the andes from colombia to
argentina.
The only form to support FOSS is supporting local
development, we need
a critical mass of foss communities and developers.
Develop technology in the first world to be used in
the third world is
not the solution !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Please learn from other organizations, ask to USAID,
WB InfoDev,
Ashoka, and many others, Google couls learn a lot
about Why local is
better.
-------------------------------
> Hello, I second that.
> Our organization wasn't selected, but it would be a
very good support to
> be listed (well, not so good as being selected ;-]
but... )
> We are a small team from Brazil and it would be very
interesting to get
> some feedback (and, who knows... some code) from
people from around the
> world. GSoC can help with that!
> De Lucca
Our organization was not selected and we are based in
Peru.
99% of selected organizations are based in first world
countries !!!!!!!!!!
and always the number of selected students from the
third world is a
little number !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
----------------------------
On 16 mar, 00:25, "Chris DiBona" <cdib...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> Last year, we had something like 28% of our students
in the US, the rest
> were distributed around the world, in 90 countries.
90. That's not a 1. 90.
This good 28% students from US and the rest from 90
countries.
mmm, how many of these 90 countries are third world
countries?
Japan, France, Spain, Finland or Canada are not third
world countries.
Brazil, India are third world countries and was very
good that google
selected many students from brazil and india in SoC
2006 and SoC 2005.
We hope, this year the selected organizations would
select more
students from the third world. Its is no easy for a
student from the
third world, most developers in the third world dont
have a PC at home
and computer labs at universities are full of old and
obsolete
computers, well this is the reality. However students
are very
talented, give an opportunity to these students to
show their talent !
But What about organizations, How many organizations
from the third
world have been selected? there are some stats??
---------------------------------------
Dear Thiago
You are right, foss movement in Brazil, India and
China is very
strong, there are a lot of talent !
But is not the same in Peru or Nepal and other less
developing
countries.
Is not charity when I request more support for third
world counties
specially countries where foss community is small and
there are enough
local support.
Brazil is good example of what thing are right, most
brazilean
developers have access to huge resources, dont matter
if they are poor
or rich, if they are good the have an opportunity.
Brazilean
Universities have state of the art labs, I know
because there are a
lot of peruvian students in Brazil, they are awarded
with fellowships
from the brazilean government. Brazil is an important
country in
science and technology, they have centers of excelence
like CBPF, and
there are top level research labs in biotechnology and
computer
science. The flag of Brazil is in the CERN and
FERMILAB.
Is the same in India and China. However Brazil, India
and China are
exceptions and not the rule. Most third world country
are very poor
and their education system are awful, there are not
any local
infrastructure.
Most of peruvian developers dont have a PC at home and
computer labs
at universities are full of old and obsolete computer.
Most foss groups in Peru, Bolivia, Nepal or Zambia
dont have the same
opportunities than brazilean foss community.
I am worry because you know that poverty in Brazil and
Peru is the
same and we have similar problems.
You know why brazil is one of the most innovatives
countries, because
Brazil support local initiatives, there are a strong
foss movement in
Brazil, you the brazilean developers are creating
innovative
technologies.
Google thinks that is better develop foss technology
in the first
world and use this in the third world.
You know, this is not the solution.
OLPC is the example, the brazilean olpc community is
working to
develop their own software and hardware, I hear Brazil
want to produce
their own OLPC machines and One Server per School
machines.
in Argentina, Tuquito and UTUTO are developing their
own OS for OLPC.
Do you think is better to develop all at MIT, and
Brazil will be only
one consumer?
----------------------------------
> And this is probably the reason why there are so few
"third-world
> excluding BRIC" countries represented in Summer of
Code: if students
> don't have access to a computer, they can't
participate. Heck, they might
> not even be aware of the program's existence.
> I know those problems exist. But they are beyond the
scope of the Summer
> of Code initiative.
Dear Thiago
Beyond the Scope of Summer of Code Inititative, that
mean its is not
my problem and I wash my hands.
We are all in same world !!!!!!!
The UN Millennium Development Goals is an example, you
cant say this
is not my problem, we all citizen, corporations, from
all the world,
we all must think about and do something to change the
world.
Google SoC says, well maybe Google.org is interested
in this kind of
project (social foss).
mmm this is very strange, Well I think Google have
Social
Responsibility Guidelines. I am not sure if Google has
been signed UN
MDG agreement, or is a member of BSR or UN Global
Pact.
Why only Google.org, I think all google's employees
must be follow the
guidelines dont matter if they are in the marketing
department or the
candy store (they have nice candy and tos store in
their offices).
Well I read this in RConversations Blog
----------------------
Google is now committed publicly to a process "which
aims to produce a
set of principles guiding company behavior when faced
with laws,
regulations and policies that interfere with the
achievement of human
rights."
This is not only the right thing to do, but these
U.S.-based firms
Microsoft, Yahoo!, Google, Cisco plus the European
Vodaphone all
recognize that in the long run ethical business is
smart business: if
your users can't trust you to do all you can to uphold
their interests
and rights, you will be hard-pressed to retain
customers globally.
When a company is known to be colluding with state
censorship in one
country, that tarnishes its credibility in other
markets. And when
another firm hands political dissidents over to the
police in one
jurisdiction, its users elsewhere will think twice
about using its
services.
------------------------------------
Now I understand why develop a open protocol to allow
to social
activists to speak without government censure is out
the Summer of
Code scope :)
My apologies if my critics are very acid, I am trying
to call
attention, there are more to do that only code, yes
code with a
propose.
Well I am not familiar with the social and ethical
guidelines at
google, but I am going to review the google site and
make some
comments about that.
-----------------------------
The only form to support FOSS is supporting local
development, we need
a critical mass of foss communities and developers.
Develop technology in the first world to be used in
the third world is
not the solution !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Google is right, social foss projects are off SoC
scope.
I hear there are some initiatives around the world,
LinuxChix in
Africa they encourage girls who work with foss
projects and there are
a LinuxChix chapter in Peru, hey the girls are very
innovatives.
Do you know some Alternatives SoC Initiatives? please
share with us.
----------------------------
One Letter to FOSS Organizations
We would encourage to take students from developing
countries. There
are an important number of selected students from
Brazil, India and
China but these countries are the exception and not
the rule. There
are not students from Peru, Nepal or Zambia, Why?
I know most mentors make selections based only in the
proposal or
qualifications.
Well this is not good, first English is not a
universal language and
most students from less developing countries dont
speak english or
have a little knowledge of english grammar. Must
students from
developer countries dont have a computer at home and
most universities
from third world dont have computer labs, usually
students have access
at internet cafes, but this is not free. But they are
very talented
and creative developers. Please give to these students
an opportunity
to show their talent.
Most organizations are based in first world countries.
One of great
solutions to provide access to high education in USA
and Europe are
the special programs to students from minorities or
disabilities.
In USA thousands of hispanics, blacks, american
natives, blind people,
etc have an opportunity to access to high education,
Harvard, MIT,
Princeton, Stanford have many programs. Maybe this
students dont have
a high GPA or they never take advanced courses at high
school but this
special programs make the difference.
There many stories about students from very poor
families who are in
Harvard for free because they are granted a special
fellowships. Maybe
some people think is not just if a student with a high
scores from a
private high school is not admited at harvard because
his place was
awarded to black or hispanic student from a getto, and
this student
have an average or low scores.
This is not charity this is justice, this is equality.
Please make a difference, thinking about these
developer students,
they need an opportunity, they are motivated and
talented.
-----------------------------------------
> That is a good idea. I am also in a third world
country ( others say). I
> think problem is not the state not the development
status of the country. I
> is is the problem of popularity of GSOC in those
countries . So I think GSOC
> mentors must not specially think about thrird world
countries. It is a shame
> for us.
> We are only expected a fair selections. I think
mentor are intelligent so
> they may not highly consider about the linguistic
mistakes.
> But I accept that the popularity of GSOC in third
world countries too less.
> Best Regards,
> Eran
Dear Eran
Google Summer of Code is very popular in many third
world countries.
SoC is very popular in south america, just check the
high number of
blogs whick talk about SoC.
There are many students from Brazil, India, China and
I Think this
year will be more applications from this countries
than the last year.
But what about Peru, Nepal or Zimbabwe. There are not
developers in
these countries?
The foss communities in this countries are very
actives and motivated.
The last year LinuxChix in Zimbabwe won Software
Freedom Day
Competition in the teams category. FOSS groups at
Nepal are very
actives, they are working to promote OLPC project.
But What is the message When you never select a
student from this
countries?. The last year only 1 student from Chile
was selected and
Chile is one of countries with a large number of foss
developers.
And never a peruvian student from Peru has been
selected, the number
of peruvians students in 2006 was 0.
$4500 is very attractive, this is equal to the annual
income of an
peruvian engineer. There are many peruvian students
who apply but when
a student ask to other student for advice about SoC,
the answers is
simple dont waste your time google nevers accept
peruvian students,
only check the SoC page and see how many peruvians
have been selected.
Google is sending a negative message.
Imagine if a black student from a getto want to study
at harvard,
nobody say this is imposible because harvard never
accept black
students, what is the positive message, well there are
many blacks
students at harvard, check the webpage from The
Medical School or Law
School, there are many opportunities for student from
minorities,
there many grants and felloships only for support
black students.
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