<div dir="ltr"><div>Exactly right - if you genuinely have the problem of wanting to store some key data offline for long periods of time, then "generate them properly" and print them out & use tamper-evident envelopes. If you have the problem at scale, HSMs are probably in your future, sorry about that. But for an introduction to the concept, I think these DiceKeys are actually interesting and seem to be valid.</div><div><br></div><div>Dice are not 'ideal' generators, as the majority of options on the market are made with very sloppy tolerances, which is probably what happened in the 2014 article with hexadecimal dice not providing an even distribution - but this is simply the same 'bias' problem that OneRNG has as well, just at a larger scale. You can hide the bias by reducing your claim to the bits of entropy per event and then whiten the results ... which is easier to do in software than with the results of some dice rolls being processed by a human.</div><div><br></div><div>Interestingly enough there are observable 'dice roll fatigue' effects (can't find a reference at the moment, sorry) where humans tend to change the amount of effort they put into a shake-and-roll and after a few iterations it's more like a slide-onto-the-table which leads to slightly more predictable results. So shaking all the dice in one go, via a bag or decent cup, is the way to go.</div><div><br></div><div>-jim</div><div><br></div><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Sep 17, 2020 at 5:47 AM R P Herrold <<a href="mailto:herrold@owlriver.com">herrold@owlriver.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><u></u>
<div color="#333333" bgcolor="#ffffff" style="background:rgb(255,255,255);color:rgb(102,115,102);font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:16px;line-height:20px;margin:0px">
<span id="gmail-m_7827702168195489648gs-content-email-layout-preheader" style="background:rgb(255,255,255);color:rgb(255,255,255);display:none;font-size:1px">
</span>
<div id="gmail-m_7827702168195489648gs-content-email-layout-prebody" style="padding:0px 10px">
</div>
<table align="center" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" height="100%" width="100%" color="#333333" id="gmail-m_7827702168195489648gs-content-email-layout" style="background-color:transparent;border:none;border-collapse:collapse;border-spacing:0px;margin:0px;max-width:100%;padding:0px">
<tbody><tr>
<td align="center" valign="middle" width="100%" id="gmail-m_7827702168195489648toparea" style="background:rgb(85,102,119);border-bottom:6px solid rgb(166,179,191);height:24px;margin:0px;padding:0px" height="24">
<center>
<table cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%" style="background-color:transparent;border-collapse:collapse;border-spacing:0px;margin:0px;max-width:100%"><tbody><tr>
<td valign="top" id="gmail-m_7827702168195489648titlebar" style="margin:0px;padding:0px;text-align:left" align="left">
<table cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%" style="background-color:transparent;border-collapse:collapse;border-spacing:0px;margin:0px;max-width:100%"><tbody><tr>
<td style="margin:0px;padding:0px">
<a id="gmail-m_7827702168195489648titlebar-home-link" href="http://lists.onerng.info" style="border:none;color:rgb(85,102,119);display:block;line-height:20px;max-width:600px;text-decoration:none;white-space:nowrap" target="_blank"><span style="display:none"> </span>
<span style="color:rgb(255,255,255);font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:20px;font-weight:bold;line-height:20px">OneRNG</span></a>
</td>
</tr></tbody></table>
</td>
</tr></tbody></table>
</center>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td align="center" valign="top" width="100%" id="gmail-m_7827702168195489648gs-content-email-layout-body" style="border-collapse:separate;margin:0px;padding:0px;table-layout:fixed">
<center>
<table cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%" style="background-color:transparent;border-collapse:collapse;border-spacing:0px;margin:0px;max-width:100%;padding:0px"><tbody><tr>
<td valign="top" style="margin:0px;padding:0px">
<table cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%" id="gmail-m_7827702168195489648gs-content-email-layout-fluid-body" style="background-color:transparent;border-collapse:collapse;border-spacing:0px;margin:0px;max-width:100%;padding:0px"><tbody><tr>
<td id="gmail-m_7827702168195489648bodyblock" bgcolor="#FFFFFF" style="background:rgb(255,255,252);margin:0px;padding:20px 10px;text-align:left" align="left">
<div id="gmail-m_7827702168195489648gs-group-list-email-html">
<table id="gmail-m_7827702168195489648gs-group-list-email-html-prologue" align="center" valign="top" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%" style="background-color:transparent;border-collapse:collapse;border-spacing:0px;margin:0px;max-width:100%;padding:0px"><tbody><tr>
<td id="gmail-m_7827702168195489648gs-group-list-email-html-prologue-photo" valign="top" width="60" height="60" style="margin:0px;padding:0px">
<a href="http://lists.onerng.info/p/74XvCQ6RLYoPvTNiXd3VBI" title="Photo of herrold" style="color:rgb(85,102,119);text-decoration:none" target="_blank">
<img border="0" alt="Photo of herrold" height="auto" width="auto" style="border: 0px; height: auto; max-width: 100%; vertical-align: middle; width: auto;" valign="middle"></a>
</td>
<td id="gmail-m_7827702168195489648gs-group-list-email-html-prologue-metadata" valign="top" style="margin:0px;padding:0px">
<table style="background-color:transparent;border-collapse:collapse;border-spacing:0px;margin:0px;max-width:100%;padding:0px">
<tbody><tr>
<td style="margin:0px;padding:0px 0px 0px 10px">
<a href="http://lists.onerng.info/r/topic/2sfVnjQXQCQbNLtvey0guG" style="color:rgb(85,102,119);text-decoration:none" target="_blank"><b>DiceKeys looks very cool</b></a>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style="margin:0px;padding:0px 0px 0px 10px">
<span class="gmail-m_7827702168195489648muted" style="color:rgb(140,141,141)">by </span>
<a href="http://lists.onerng.info/p/74XvCQ6RLYoPvTNiXd3VBI" style="color:rgb(85,102,119);text-decoration:none" target="_blank"><b>herrold</b>
</a>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style="margin:0px;padding:0px 0px 0px 10px">
<span class="gmail-m_7827702168195489648muted" style="color:rgb(140,141,141)">in </span>
<a href="http://lists.onerng.info/groups/onerng-talk" style="color:rgb(85,102,119);text-decoration:none" target="_blank">
<b>OneRNG Talk</b></a>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody></table>
</td>
</tr></tbody></table>
<table id="gmail-m_7827702168195489648gs-group-list-email-html-body" align="left" valign="center" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%" style="background-color:transparent;border-collapse:collapse;border-spacing:0px;margin:0px;max-width:100%;padding:0px">
<tbody><tr>
<td style="margin:0px;padding:0px"><hr style="border-width:3px 0px 1px;border-right-style:initial;border-left-style:initial;border-right-color:initial;border-left-color:initial;border-bottom-style:solid;border-bottom-color:rgb(238,238,238);border-top-style:none;border-top-color:initial;margin:0px;padding:9px 0px 0px"></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td id="gmail-m_7827702168195489648gs-group-list-email-html-body-main" align="left" style="margin:0px;padding:10px 0px 0px">
<span style="display:inline-block;max-width:580px;overflow:hidden;text-overflow:ellipsis;white-space:pre-wrap;width:100%" width="100%">On Wed, 16 Sep 2020, Jim Cheetham wrote:</span><br>
<br><span class="gmail-m_7827702168195489648muted" style="color:rgb(140,141,141);display:inline-block;max-width:580px;overflow:hidden;text-overflow:ellipsis;white-space:pre-wrap;width:100%" width="100%">> <a href="https://www.wired.com/story/dicekeys-cryptography/" style="color:rgb(85,102,119);text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">https://<b>www.wired.com</b>/story/dicekeys-cryptography/</a></span><br><span class="gmail-m_7827702168195489648muted" style="color:rgb(140,141,141);display:inline-block;max-width:580px;overflow:hidden;text-overflow:ellipsis;white-space:pre-wrap;width:100%" width="100%">> <a href="https://www.crowdsupply.com/dicekeys/dicekeys" style="color:rgb(85,102,119);text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">https://<b>www.crowdsupply.com</b>/dicekeys/dicekeys</a></span><br>
<br><span style="display:inline-block;max-width:580px;overflow:hidden;text-overflow:ellipsis;white-space:pre-wrap;width:100%" width="100%">fine geek toy, but seems overly complex. I threw this</span><br><span style="display:inline-block;max-width:580px;overflow:hidden;text-overflow:ellipsis;white-space:pre-wrap;width:100%" width="100%">together long ago, to simply replicate a shuffling and deal,</span><br><span style="display:inline-block;max-width:580px;overflow:hidden;text-overflow:ellipsis;white-space:pre-wrap;width:100%" width="100%">selection without replacement of an arbitrary input deck of</span><br><span style="display:inline-block;max-width:580px;overflow:hidden;text-overflow:ellipsis;white-space:pre-wrap;width:100%" width="100%">letters, numbers, symbols, whatever. Add UC. Stack or bias</span><br><span style="display:inline-block;max-width:580px;overflow:hidden;text-overflow:ellipsis;white-space:pre-wrap;width:100%" width="100%">the deck to taste. Run lots of rounds</span><br>
<br><span style="display:inline-block;max-width:580px;overflow:hidden;text-overflow:ellipsis;white-space:pre-wrap;width:100%" width="100%">Print a screenful, and choose a line and offset with a D & D</span><br><span style="display:inline-block;max-width:580px;overflow:hidden;text-overflow:ellipsis;white-space:pre-wrap;width:100%" width="100%">20 side die for your seed. Print a sheaf of them, and toss</span><br><span style="display:inline-block;max-width:580px;overflow:hidden;text-overflow:ellipsis;white-space:pre-wrap;width:100%" width="100%">the paper into the safe in a tamper evident safety envelope</span><br>
<br><span style="display:inline-block;max-width:580px;overflow:hidden;text-overflow:ellipsis;white-space:pre-wrap;width:100%" width="100%"><a href="https://github.com/herrold/tool-tips/blob/master/convenience/shuffle-stdin.php" style="color:rgb(85,102,119);font-size:12px;line-height:20px;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">https://<b>github.com</b>/herrold/tool-tips/blob/master/convenience/shuffle-stdin.php</a></span><br>
<br><span style="display:inline-block;max-width:580px;overflow:hidden;text-overflow:ellipsis;white-space:pre-wrap;width:100%" width="100%">[herrold@centos8 bin]$ for i in `seq 1 20` ; do echo -n "$i " ; \</span><br><span style="display:inline-block;max-width:580px;overflow:hidden;text-overflow:ellipsis;white-space:pre-wrap;width:100%" width="100%"> echo "abcdefghijklmnopqurstvwxyz" | shuffle-stdin.php ; done</span><br>
<br><span style="display:inline-block;max-width:580px;overflow:hidden;text-overflow:ellipsis;white-space:pre-wrap;width:100%" width="100%">1 dfujagrsyitnvmcxhqzbpleowk</span><br><span style="display:inline-block;max-width:580px;overflow:hidden;text-overflow:ellipsis;white-space:pre-wrap;width:100%" width="100%">2 szgnhmdryalutwpifojekvqbcx</span><br><span style="display:inline-block;max-width:580px;overflow:hidden;text-overflow:ellipsis;white-space:pre-wrap;width:100%" width="100%">3 ehkjunfsdzmgorxlbcaiwtqyvp</span><br><span style="display:inline-block;max-width:580px;overflow:hidden;text-overflow:ellipsis;white-space:pre-wrap;width:100%" width="100%">4 pmfaijucyhqrwodvsgxzentbkl</span><br><span style="display:inline-block;max-width:580px;overflow:hidden;text-overflow:ellipsis;white-space:pre-wrap;width:100%" width="100%">5 acjsbzqohuenvixltmpdwfrkgy</span><br><span style="display:inline-block;max-width:580px;overflow:hidden;text-overflow:ellipsis;white-space:pre-wrap;width:100%" width="100%">6 bqgamshnlvidjkpuezwtycxfro</span><br><span style="display:inline-block;max-width:580px;overflow:hidden;text-overflow:ellipsis;white-space:pre-wrap;width:100%" width="100%">7 mfuasdkbxrvnqecoltjwhpizgy</span><br><span style="display:inline-block;max-width:580px;overflow:hidden;text-overflow:ellipsis;white-space:pre-wrap;width:100%" width="100%">8 ltuvkmgqwbhfyonpzdsjiecrax</span><br><span style="display:inline-block;max-width:580px;overflow:hidden;text-overflow:ellipsis;white-space:pre-wrap;width:100%" width="100%">9 pgxtveusjzfnwiahymdorbclkq</span><br><span style="display:inline-block;max-width:580px;overflow:hidden;text-overflow:ellipsis;white-space:pre-wrap;width:100%" width="100%">10 kirltwxogaudzvqmshfbypenjc</span><br><span style="display:inline-block;max-width:580px;overflow:hidden;text-overflow:ellipsis;white-space:pre-wrap;width:100%" width="100%">11 cblrdhkzfjpsotwnayxequvmgi</span><br><span style="display:inline-block;max-width:580px;overflow:hidden;text-overflow:ellipsis;white-space:pre-wrap;width:100%" width="100%">12 xudzoricjagefqnwvmhbyslptk</span><br><span style="display:inline-block;max-width:580px;overflow:hidden;text-overflow:ellipsis;white-space:pre-wrap;width:100%" width="100%">13 owblfjagvduxipkmnhzcetrysq</span><br><span style="display:inline-block;max-width:580px;overflow:hidden;text-overflow:ellipsis;white-space:pre-wrap;width:100%" width="100%">14 qvyhlafmgpijwxrtoscbdkzuen</span><br><span style="display:inline-block;max-width:580px;overflow:hidden;text-overflow:ellipsis;white-space:pre-wrap;width:100%" width="100%">15 tpvwycghzjkuafdmorsbxleinq</span><br><span style="display:inline-block;max-width:580px;overflow:hidden;text-overflow:ellipsis;white-space:pre-wrap;width:100%" width="100%">16 wtipbesdajvomncgzurlxkfqyh</span><br><span style="display:inline-block;max-width:580px;overflow:hidden;text-overflow:ellipsis;white-space:pre-wrap;width:100%" width="100%">17 bapjixtmuvrgcqhkldnyofzews</span><br><span style="display:inline-block;max-width:580px;overflow:hidden;text-overflow:ellipsis;white-space:pre-wrap;width:100%" width="100%">18 whvryjqnkbsodleuicptmfzaxg</span><br><span style="display:inline-block;max-width:580px;overflow:hidden;text-overflow:ellipsis;white-space:pre-wrap;width:100%" width="100%">19 xhykpsrdwjovblacutfeziqmng</span><br><span style="display:inline-block;max-width:580px;overflow:hidden;text-overflow:ellipsis;white-space:pre-wrap;width:100%" width="100%">20 gybmruajfeoiqtwhnklxdspzcv</span><br><span style="display:inline-block;max-width:580px;overflow:hidden;text-overflow:ellipsis;white-space:pre-wrap;width:100%" width="100%">[herrold@centos8 bin]$</span><br>
<br><span style="display:inline-block;max-width:580px;overflow:hidden;text-overflow:ellipsis;white-space:pre-wrap;width:100%" width="100%">factorial of 26 = 403291461126 605635584000 000</span><br>
</td>
</tr>
<tr id="gmail-m_7827702168195489648gs-group-list-email-html-body-read-more">
<td style="margin:0px;padding:10px 0px 0px">
<a class="gmail-m_7827702168195489648muted" href="http://lists.onerng.info/r/post/2sfVnjQXQCQbNLtvey0guG" style="color:rgb(140,141,141);font-size:12px;line-height:20px;text-decoration:none" target="_blank">Rest of post…</a>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody></table>
<table id="gmail-m_7827702168195489648gs-group-list-email-html-links" align="center" valign="center" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%" style="background-color:transparent;border-collapse:collapse;border-spacing:0px;margin:0px;max-width:100%;padding:0px">
<tbody><tr>
<td style="margin:0px;padding:20px 0px 0px"><hr style="border-width:3px 0px 1px;border-right-style:initial;border-left-style:initial;border-right-color:initial;border-left-color:initial;border-bottom-style:solid;border-bottom-color:rgb(238,238,238);border-top-style:none;border-top-color:initial;margin:0px;padding:9px 0px 0px"></td>
</tr>
<tr id="gmail-m_7827702168195489648gs-group-list-email-html-links-view">
<td style="margin:0px;padding:20px 0px 0px">
<a id="gmail-m_7827702168195489648gs-group-list-email-html-links-view-reply" href="mailto:onerng-talk@lists.onerng.info?subject=Re%3A%20DiceKeys%20looks%20very%20cool" title="Reply to this email" class="gmail-m_7827702168195489648btn" style="background-color:rgb(85,102,119);background-image:none;background-repeat:repeat-x;border-width:1px;border-style:solid;border-color:rgba(102,153,0,0.1) rgba(102,153,0,0.1) rgba(102,153,0,0.25);border-radius:4px;color:rgb(255,255,255);display:inline-block;font-size:16px;line-height:20px;margin-bottom:0px;padding:4px 12px;text-align:center;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:middle" bgcolor="#556677" align="center" valign="middle" target="_blank">⮪ Reply</a>
<a id="gmail-m_7827702168195489648gs-group-list-email-html-links-view-new" href="mailto:onerng-talk@lists.onerng.info" title="Start a new topic by email" class="gmail-m_7827702168195489648btn" style="background-color:rgb(85,102,119);background-image:none;background-repeat:repeat-x;border-width:1px;border-style:solid;border-color:rgba(102,153,0,0.1) rgba(102,153,0,0.1) rgba(102,153,0,0.25);border-radius:4px;color:rgb(255,255,255);display:inline-block;font-size:16px;line-height:20px;margin-bottom:0px;padding:4px 12px;text-align:center;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:middle" bgcolor="#556677" align="center" valign="middle" target="_blank">🖂 New topic</a>
<a id="gmail-m_7827702168195489648gs-group-list-email-html-links-view-topic" class="gmail-m_7827702168195489648btn" href="http://lists.onerng.info/r/topic/2sfVnjQXQCQbNLtvey0guG" title="View this post within the topic on the web" style="background-color:rgb(85,102,119);background-image:none;background-repeat:repeat-x;border-width:1px;border-style:solid;border-color:rgba(102,153,0,0.1) rgba(102,153,0,0.1) rgba(102,153,0,0.25);border-radius:4px;color:rgb(255,255,255);display:inline-block;font-size:16px;line-height:20px;margin-bottom:0px;padding:4px 12px;text-align:center;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:middle" bgcolor="#556677" align="center" valign="middle" target="_blank">View topic…</a>
</td>
</tr>
<tr id="gmail-m_7827702168195489648gs-group-list-email-html-links-settings">
<td style="margin:0px;padding:20px 0px 0px">
<a href="mailto:onerng-talk@lists.onerng.info?subject=Unsubscribe&body=Hello%2C%0A%0APlease%20remove%20me%20from%20OneRNG%20Talk%0A%3Chttp%3A//lists.onerng.info/groups/onerng-talk%3E%0A%0AThank%20you." style="color:rgb(85,102,119);text-decoration:none" target="_blank">Unsubscribe</a>
<span class="gmail-m_7827702168195489648muted" style="color:rgb(140,141,141)"> • </span>
<a href="mailto:onerng-talk@lists.onerng.info?subject=Digest%20on&body=Hello%2C%0A%0APlease%20switch%20me%20from%20receiving%20one%20email%20per%20post%20to%20the%20daily%0Adigest%2C%20which%20summarises%20the%20all%20the%20posts%20made%20each%20day%20in%0AOneRNG%20Talk%0A%3Chttp%3A//lists.onerng.info/groups/onerng-talk%3E%0A%0AThank%20you." style="color:rgb(85,102,119);text-decoration:none" target="_blank">Switch to a daily digest</a>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody></table>
</div>
</td>
</tr></tbody></table>
</td>
</tr></tbody></table>
</center>
</td>
</tr>
<tr id="gmail-m_7827702168195489648gs-content-layout-footer" style="background:rgb(237,240,242);border-top:6px solid rgb(204,204,204);clear:both;color:rgb(85,102,119);height:24px;margin:0px;padding:0px" height="24">
<td align="center" valign="top" width="100%" style="margin:0px;padding:0px">
<center>
<table cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%" style="background-color:transparent;border-collapse:collapse;border-spacing:0px;margin:10px 0px;max-width:100%"><tbody><tr>
<td valign="top" id="gmail-m_7827702168195489648gs-content-layout-footer-content" style="margin:0px;padding:0px 0px 0px 10px;text-align:left" align="left">
<table cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%" style="background-color:transparent;border-collapse:collapse;border-spacing:0px;margin:10px 0px;max-width:100%"><tbody><tr>
<td style="margin:0px;padding:0px">
<ul style="margin:0px;padding:0px">
<li style="display:inline-block;line-height:20px;list-style:none;vertical-align:top" valign="top">
<a href="http://lists.onerng.info/policies/privacy/" style="color:inherit;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">Privacy</a>
</li>
<li style="display:inline-block;line-height:20px;list-style:none;vertical-align:top" valign="top">
<a href="http://lists.onerng.info/policies/aup/" style="color:inherit;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">Acceptable Use</a>
</li>
<li style="display:inline-block;line-height:20px;list-style:none;vertical-align:top" valign="top">
<a href="http://lists.onerng.info/policies/tos/" style="color:inherit;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">Terms of Service</a>
</li>
</ul>
</td>
</tr></tbody></table>
</td>
</tr></tbody></table>
</center>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody></table>
</div>
</blockquote></div></div>