[chbot] Kickstart in FPGA course...

Tue Feb 15 03:41:44 GMT 2011

Great news. We have agreement in principle to use the Seminar Room at
Science Alive once a week for a month or two. We need to confirm exactly
what we want when we know more about what we would like to do. We can
discuss more about this at Mondays meeting. See you there!

Richard

On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 3:35 PM, Charles Manning <cdhmanning at gmail.com>wrote:

> On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 2:45 PM, hamster <hamster at snap.net.nz> wrote:
> > Hi Charles
> >
> > Yes, your are right, but as far as I can see the Digilent/Xilinx Kool-aid
> > an't that bad.
>
> That was my point. Everyone wants you to drink some KoolAid and
> Xilinx' is probably not as unpalatable as some others.
> Altera have some nifty ARM core support and low power support which I
> think Xilinx lacks, but IIRC the entry level kit is more expensive.
>
> What it really comes down to is deciding:
>
> 1) what the goals of the course are and then deciding on the
> cheapest/most convenient board + environment that will do the job. eg.
> a) if we want to synth larger micros then the board needs some RAM etc
> as there are really not enough onboard RAM cells for more serious
> work. That needs the slightly more expensive range of boards eg. Nexys
> 2$150 or so.
> b) If the goal is just to dabble with basic programmable logic then a
> $20 or so CPLD will do the job.
>
> For my purposes I would probably find the $Nexyx 2 the best fit, but then I
>
> 2) How price sensitive people are.
>
>
> >
> > I dug a little closer (see
> > http://www.xilinx.com/publications/matrix/Software_matrix.pdf)...
> >
> > The Xilinx 'no cost' tools ("ISE WebPack") area *supported* on :
> > - Windows XP (32 & 64 bit0
> > - Windows Vista (32 & 64 bit)
> > - Red Hat Enterprise Linux WS 4 (32 & 64 bit)
> > - Red Hat Enterprise Linux WS 5 (32 & 64 bit)
> > - SUSE Enterprise Linux 11 (32&64 bit)
>
> I do apologize for an earlier posting that it needed a live internet
> connection. I was getting confused with some other web-xxx tools. All
> Webpack seems to mean is stuff you can get over the www.
>
> I expect it will play with Ubuntu too with some dabbling perhaps.
>
> >
> > My guess is that they will also run on other Linux flavours, but these
> are
> > the ones that they are tested on. I currently run it on  Windows 7 (which
> > isn't officially supported) without issues.
> >
> > The no-cost toolset only supports smaller and less advanced FPGAs, but a
> > million logic gates is enough for anybody :-). For example, a PicoBlaze
> > embedded processor takes only 38 Configurable Logic Blocks (CLB), and my
> > current board has 4,656 CLBs - so I could stand up over 100 independent
> > processors.
> >
> > The only true lock-in that bugs me is that you are not able to choose the
> > optimizer 'goals', and that simulation runs progressively slower after
> > 50,000 lines are simulated.
> >
> > The small boards are still quite useful, depending on how you define
> > useful - Over at OpenCores you can download a PDP11 design that fits in
> my
> > Nexys2  board, if you want to boot a really old UNIX with the platform's
> > maximum of 4MB of RAM :-). The project I've just finished playing with
> > plays back 16bit Stereo WAV files from on-board flash at 44,200Hz through
> a
> > FPGA implemented 1-bit DAC, with added simple DSP features (well, a
> two-tap
> > 'echo' reverb), is completely unoptimised and uses only 5% of the FPGA.
> >
> > I've already got the complete install DVD downloaded, and would burn off
> > copies for interested people. If you have the DVD image then internet
> > access is only needed to get a free registration for the 'no-cost'
> license
> > to replace the 60 day trial -  Downloading multiple GBs is not fun,
> > especially when you have a new toy^hol to play with.
>
> I ordered a free hardcopy DVD which should take a couple of weeks.
>
> >
> > The Development board programming tools is a bit more difficult as each
> > manufacturer has their own tools, but unlike the early days the Diligent
> > tools are available for Linux from
> >
> http://www.digilentinc.com/Products/Detail.cfm?NavPath=2,66,828&Prod=ADEPT2
> .
> > Although I am a big Linux fan I haven't programmed my board from Linux.
> If
> > this was a deciding factor I could either give it a try, or lend you a
> > board and DVD to play with.
>
> Using Windows is not a show-stopper. I would however need to fortify
> the KoolAid to overcome the pain though.
>
>
> -- Charles
>
>
> >
> > Mike
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, 14 Feb 2011 16:20:22 +1300, Charles Manning
> > <manningc2 at actrix.gen.nz> wrote:
> >> I'm interested too.
> >>
> >> No matter what vendor's kit you choose you will end up with a bias and
> >> have to
> >> drink somebody's Kool Aid.
> >>
> >> When you're playing with FPGAs etc the bigger question is" What's the
> > deal
> >> with tools?" Are those free to download or is that a hidden cost? What
> > are
> >> the limitations? Linux option or Windows only?
> >>
> >> From what I've seen here, this board will work with the free ISE Webpack
> >
> >> software which requires web access (download code to a server to
> > compile)
> >> which will work with Windows and Linux.
> >> http://www.xilinx.com/tools/webpack.htm
> >>
> >> The board's USB download uses some WIndows software. Pity there isn't a
> >> Linux
> >> version.
> >>
> >> -- Charles
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Sunday 13 February 2011 18:31:06 Mark Atherton wrote:
> >>> Yes, interested.
> >>>
> >>> You have a Xilinx bias, but don't forget about Altera and the Quartus
> >>> II environment.
> >>>
> >>> Also don't forget Verilog, which is very C like and has a shallower
> >>> learning curve than VHDL and much simpler, but quite powerful.
> >>>
> >>> Diligent have and Academic  price - AU$65.00, would you be willing to
> >>> inquire about a bulk (5 ?) price purchase for a CHCH based non-profit
> >>> educational group (this group).
> >>>
> >>> I am sure we can scrounge space at Science Alive or the main library
> >>> for setup...
> >>>
> >>> Keep going.
> >>>
> >>> Mark
> >>>
> >>> At 05:53 p.m. 13/02/2011, hamster wrote:
> >>> >I haven't seen much traffic on the list, so I don't know if this is
> >>> >appropriate for the list.
> >>> >
> >>> >Is anybody interested in getting a kickstart in learning to use FPGAs?
> >>> >
> >>> >I'm toying with the idea of getting four or five people together,
> >>> >putting
> >>> >a bulk order for development boards, and then arranging somewhere for
> > a
> >>> >few
> >>> >evenings to get the basics going. Given the flexibility and power I am
> >>> >amazed
> >>> >that these devices seem to be shunned as too hard too use.
> >>> >
> >>> >I found that getting started was the hard bit - knowing what board to
> >>> >buy,
> >>> >  getting the CAD software installed and licensed, getting the first
> >>> >project running.
> >>> >
> >>> >A FPGA board costs under AU$100 for a basic "all-in-one" 100,000 gate
> >>> >model (eg
> >>>
> >>http://www.blackboxconsulting.com.au/product-details/basys2-100k.html),
> >>> >but
> >>> >it's the shipping that costs if you order one at a time. If $ are
> > tight,
> >>> >you
> >>> >could go halves with a mate for a board - a lot of time is spent on
> > your
> >>> >PC
> >>> >designing... If anybody wasn't sure if they wanted to buy a board I
> >>> >could
> >>> >lend them one.
> >>> >
> >>> >Larger/faster/feature-rich boards a not much more expensive, but you
> >>> >have
> >>> >to
> >>> >take care to ensure that your board is supported with the "free to
> > use"
> >>> >design tools.
> >>> >
> >>> >As for the evenings, I was thinking of putting together a few brief
> >>> >show & tell  + workshops to do simple projects... an off the top of my
> >>> >head
> >>> >topic list would be
> >>> >- What FPGAs are good at
> >>> >- Getting the development software installed
> >>> >- Getting the first project running
> >>> >- Schematic entry and VHDL design
> >>> >- An overview of the on-chip resources (clock generators, block RAM
> > etc)
> >>> >- Using a development board's resources
> >>> >- Simulation and debugging
> >>> >- Implementing FSMs
> >>> >- Interfacing to other devices
> >>> >- An overview of really advanced stuff (like calibrated sub-nanosecond
> >>> >delay lines,
> >>> >
> >>> >It would just require to
> >>> >- bring along your own laptop
> >>> >- have a basic understanding of digital logic
> >>> >- have an basic understanding of binary numbers
> >>> >- familiar with a programming language - VHDL is a bit like Cobol in
> >>> >it's
> >>> >verbosity
> >>> >- ready for a steep learning curve
> >>> >- A small fee towards room hire, course material (e.g. a few DVDs, a
> >>> >little printing), and enough to upgrade my board.
> >>> >- It would be nice if every board was using the same toolset - (I
> >>> >currently use Xilinx tools).
> >>> >
> >>> >Time line would be to start in 6 weeks, or maybe Easter to
> >>> >allow for organisation and delivery of the dev kits.
> >>> >
> >>> >Anybody interested, or know anybody who would be?
> >>> >
> >>> >I wonder if I could get some buy-in from a Community College?... I
> > guess
> >>> >it is a bit more advanced than "An introduction to digital
> > photography".
> >>> >
> >>> >Mike
> >>> >
> >>
> >>
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